超越喬丹！詹姆斯登頂NBA歷史進攻正負值榜|詹喬炮庫登前五

運動 03-03

美國JRS之聲

Top five in NBA history in Offensive Box Plus-Minus: LeBron, MJ, CP3, Curry and Harden. We"re in a glorious era of NBA basketball.

NBA史上進攻正負值最高的五個球員：詹姆斯，喬丹，保羅，庫里和哈登

–][CLE] Iman ShumpertUnbiasedExpert 36 指標 17小時前

But when did they start to account for plus/minus?

什麼時候開始有這種正負值的統計的？

[–]Knicksbrohymn 93 指標 17小時前

1973

1973年

[–][SEA] Kevin Durantpaniledu 40 指標 17小時前

Explains why Wilt isn"t absurdly ahead

這就解釋了張伯倫為什麼榜上無名。

[–][NOP] Anthony DavisHAESisAMyth 44 指標 15小時前

Except Wilt was always on the court and his teams lost anyway...if he played 36 minutes a game maybe his +/- would be sick, but he played 45 mpg in his prime

張伯倫在場上但是不影響他的球隊輸球啊……他如果場均只打36分鐘，估計他的正負值又會領跑全聯盟。但是他生涯巔峰場均45分鐘。

[–][MIA] Dwyane Wadeinsustainingrain 219 指標 15小時前

Well yeah, 4 of those guys are still in their primes. Call me after they"ve been through the twilights of their careers and their career average dips and is set in stone

現在來看，這些人中有四個還正處於他們職業生涯的巔峰。他們生涯晚期一過，數據瘋狂下跌後再來叫我看這個帖子。

[–][GSW] Draymond GreenJefeLummer 54 指標 13小時前*

I"d say LeBron and CP3 are pretty past their prime statistically speaking. But I get your point

數據上來看，詹姆斯和保羅差不多都已經巔峰已過了。但是你說的很有道理。

[–][CLE] LeBron JamesIsNewAtThis 20 指標 10小時前

Assuming 2012-13 as LeBron"s prime:

2012-13: 26.8 pts on 60.3% efg, 8 rbs, 7.3 asts

2016-17: 25.7 pts on 58.8% efg, 8 rbs, 8.9 asts

If you had to guess which was his prime you could argue for either and this year has the edge because of his career high in asts. I would not say he is past his prime statistically.

假如說詹姆斯巔峰是2012-2013賽季的話：

2012-2013賽季：26.8分+8籃板+7.3次助攻+60.3%有效命中率

2016-2017賽季：25.7分+8籃板+8.9次助攻+58.8%有效命中率

如果讓你猜他巔峰時什麼時候的話，兩個賽季來看都可以，這賽季算是略微佔優，因為他助攻拿到了生涯新高。數據角度，我覺得他還沒過巔峰呢

[–]CelticsPippenFresh 28 指標 10小時前

lol that"s nuts. He was averaging 30-7-7 when his games were broadcast in Standard Definition. Almost 30k points, and he"s only 32. I would probably be disappointed if LeBron wasn"t averaging at least 23-6-6 in 2020.

嘿嘿，這說法不合理的。他場均砍下30+7+7的比賽當時被以比作標杆來播出。現在才32歲的他，已經拿到了快3萬分。如果到2020年，詹姆斯場均拿不到23+6+6的話，我估計會失望的。

[–]NetsBigbadbuck 13 指標 10小時前

Turnovers, minutes, blocks steals and his free throw percentage is abysmal. His ts% was better those years and he actually played less minutes

失誤數，上場時間，蓋帽搶斷和罰球命中率都不正常。他的真實命中率在那些年的比賽里要更高一點，而且他的出場時間也更短。

[–][DET] Ben WallaceWolferines 14 指標 13小時前

I don"t think players who are past their prime would be able to rally their team from 1-3 to win the finals.

我不覺得有哪個巔峰已過的球員能在決賽1-3落後的情況下率隊逆轉。

[–][CLE] LeBron Jamesaustine567 13 指標 11小時前

He is pretty clearly pat his prime athletically, but he is smarter and even a past their prime player like Lebron is still arguably the best player in the league.

運動能力上來講，他確實巔峰已過。但是他的球商讓他雖然巔峰已過，但仍然是聯盟里最好的球員。

[–][TOR] DeMar DeRozan18thLetter 327 指標 16小時前*

James Harden had more potential than anyone expected even just last season when he was 26. Let"s be real here.

說實話，哈登比人們的預想中有潛力多了，他上賽季只有26歲。

[–]GilsWorld[S] 175 指標 16小時前

Am I the only one shocked he"s on there despite coming off the bench in 3 straight seasons?

只有我一個被他前三賽季基本都替補出戰，依然能登上這個榜單的表現驚到了么。

[–]Don-Khan 92 指標 14小時前

Against other second units.. Harden was always a starter type player and he was playing against bench units and dominating.

他這樣上場對上的是別的隊的第二陣容嗎，哈登是個首發球員級別的選手，但是卻總是對上對方的替補陣容然後打出統治級的表現。

[–]LakersFreshHotTakes 11 指標 12小時前

Maybe I am an idiot, but when you look at his PER compared to other people his age it was clear he had a great shot at doing some all time great things.

可能是我傻吧，但是你看看他的PER值，跟其他於他年齡相近的球員比較可以看出，很明顯他有青史留名的機會啊。

[–]Knicksbrohymn 587 指標 17小時前

But these new era kids wouldn"t last 10 minutes against the fundamentals of George Mikan. Two handed chest pass"m to death.

這些新時代的小孩們在面對喬治邁肯這種基本功怪物時毫無機會。雙手胸前傳球能把他們玩死。

[–]robz_ 72 指標 13小時前

"...a weird sequence of events just made the ball go in!"

「一連串奇怪的事情發生之後，球很舒服的就進去了」

[–][BOS] Paul Pierceyungcrouch 110 指標 17小時前

Don"t forget how Bob Cousy would drop these kids to the floor with his dribbling. He got so low and didn"t even have to rely on any tricks like switching hands or going fast.

鮑勃庫西能把這些小孩晃的哭爹喊娘，重心低到根本不需要加速甚至是變向。

[–]Knicksbrohymn 56 指標 17小時前

who needs a left hand when your one hand dribbling around like a circus was so effective?

右手能像加藤鷹那樣控球的時候，還要什麼左手？

[–]anti_dan 13 指標 14小時前

I just also find it to be a misleading stat, because obviously it is a modern stat crafted to quantify what is valued in modern basketball. Maybe in the 70s, 80s, 90s people should have tried raining more 3s and played the "dunk or 3, pick & roll" style we play now. Or, maybe its harder for a ballhandler to shoot a 3 off their own dribble (like Steph, CP3, Kyrie, & Harden do so well now) during a handcheck-man-on-man era. On the other hand, maybe in a handcheck (but less zone) league, developing in the midrange (where you can threaten a pass while also threaten making a shot despite physical contact) was the more important skill for elite players.

這數據有誤導性，因為很明顯這是個比較現代化的數據，用來量化現代籃球中一些有意義的東西。可能在70，80，90年代人們也應該多練練三分，多打打「不扣就三，擋完就拆」的戰術。或者說，當時那個允許Handcheck的年代，持球手運球後拔起三分可能比現在要難很多（就像庫里，保羅，歐文和哈登他們現在的這種打法）。或者說，在那樣的一個允許Handcheck的聯盟里（意味著空間更狹小），開發出自己的中距離能力（就是在不需要身體接觸的情況下，做出傳球和投籃的威脅）對於精英球員更重要。

[–]Warriorsjeopardy987987 19 指標 13小時前

I don"t think that trying to shoot more 3"s would have worked well in the 70"s....

70年代投那麼多三分肯定效果不好

[–]trigtrigtrig 274 指標 17小時前

Don"t let these stats let you lose sight that La La Land lost Best Picture while giving an acceptance speech.

千萬別被這些數據迷昏了雙眼，不要忘記《愛樂之城》的劇組們在發表獲獎演說的時候被剝奪了最佳影片獎。

[–]WizardsBigCheeks2 81 指標 11小時前

La La Land had won 6 categories up to that point

Moonlight had won 2

6/2 = 3/1

La La Land blew a 3-1 lead

愛樂之城當時拿下了六個獎項、