詹姆斯最大優點也是致命缺點？他該多打無球還是教練改變戰術？

詹姆斯最大優點也是致命缺點？他該多打無球還是教練改變戰術？

Is arguably LeBron"s greatest strength also his greatest weakness?

勒布朗最大的優點也是他致命的缺點？ 

我這個可能是休賽期的又一個水帖。大傢伙可以看這個貼來打發打發時間，不過我想知道有沒有人和我持相同的看法。

首先我想說，勒布朗仍然是聯盟第一人，而且他已經奠定了自己最最最起碼歷史前五的地位，我這個貼的用意不是要黑他啊，只是想用批判性思維審視下他這個球員以及他的比賽風格。

Probably just another off-season shit-post for this sub to pass some time, but just wanted to know if anyone else catches my drift with this.

Let me just start by saying LeBron is still the best player in the game and has already cemented himself as a Top 5 GOAT at the absolute worst. Not meant to bash him in any way, just want to look at him and his game more critically.

我覺得我們大多數人都會認同，勒布朗將稀爛的陣容升華的能力是他數一數二的優點。我在Reddit說了很多次了，勒布朗是歷史上帶隊能力最強的超巨。如果要讓我選一個能夠帶領一群不入流球員並讓他們變好的球星的話，詹姆斯是不二人選。不管他身邊的球員有多糟糕，只要球在詹姆斯手中，他就能化腐朽為神奇。他帶領一些稀鬆平常的陣容打出來的成績簡直是現象級的，我不覺得有其他人能複製他的表現。

Of all LeBron"s strengths, I think most of us would agree that getting the most of lesser rosters is probably the first or second best. I"ve said multiple times on here that LeBron gives you probably the best floor of any superstar in history. There is no guy in history I would trust more than LeBron to take a team of a bunch of less-than-stellar players and prop them up into relevancy in the league. Give him the ball and he will create something good no matter how bad the guys around him are. The things that he has been able to do with some of the rosters he"s had are just phenomenal and I don"t think anyone else could do the things he"s done.

但是，下限高也是有局限性的，上限高是同樣重要的。當然了，詹姆斯拿了4MVP3冠，他的上限肯定不低。但是我覺得，詹姆斯的比賽風格導致圍繞他打造的球隊陣容的上限是有一定的坎的（這個坎不是很大，但是如果你仔細研究的話，這個坎還是比較明顯的），這麼說應該沒毛病吧？我上文中也提到了，把球交給詹姆斯，給他一些平均水平線上的幫手，他能把這支隊伍帶到換做其他人則難以企及的高度。但是硬幣有兩面，詹姆斯這個優點同時也帶來了隱患。詹姆斯的存在固然偉大，但這要求所有的一切圍著他轉。他無球相對較弱（主要是不穩定），所以為了彌補他無球的缺點，他得儘可能多地持球。但是這就限制了球隊利用其他天賦球員建立流暢機動性強的進攻體系的能力。

But, a high floor can only get you so far. Having a higher ceiling is pretty important as well. Of course, there"s no way a 4x MVP and 3x champion has by any means a low ceiling, but I think it"s safe to say that due to the nature of his game, the ceiling of a team built around LeBron is limited (not greatly but at least noticeably when looked deeper into). As I said, you give LeBron the ball, surround him with average players and he"ll take that squad farther than anyone ever can. But there"s two sides to this coin. LeBron"s presence, in all its greatness, demands that everything revolve around him. He is relatively weak without the ball (inconsistent shooting the main culprit here), so to compensate for that, you need the ball in his hands as much as possible. But that limits your ability to run a fluid and versatile offense with other talented guys.

「騎士沒詹姆斯就崩盤」這種說法在展現詹姆斯的價值的同時，也體現了一個潛在的缺陷：圍繞詹姆斯建隊的球隊離了詹姆斯就轉不開。我再重申一次，這不是詆毀他。當然，我作為一個籃網球迷，詹姆斯所在的球隊取得的輝煌是我做夢都想經歷的，但是你不得不捫心自問，為什麼一個有機會把喬丹拉下馬的還處在巔峰期的球員的上限被上了一道坎。圍繞詹姆斯建立一個上限很高的球隊是很困難的，就算那支球隊著實上限很高，大多時候也是出於天賦的溢出而不是優秀建隊體系。詹韋在合作的第一年遇到了一些麻煩，因為他們倆的比賽風格都很相似，對球權的要求較高，而且倆人投籃還都挺一般的。但是這些麻煩在韋德進入下滑期、詹姆斯完全掌舵後便消失了。在一定程度上，這跟詹歐的情況也有些相似，當初布拉特想建立一個歐文主導的進攻體系，不過那是不現實的。盧指導接管後，這支球隊完全進入了詹姆斯掌舵的模式，最後奪得了總冠軍（雖然是有一定運氣成分的險勝）。圍繞詹姆斯建隊的球隊幾乎從來不能保持長期的統治力，這很大程度上歸咎於詹姆斯掌舵模式。

As much as all these "Cavs fall apart without LeBron" takes show his value (again, not demeaning him or anything), they certainly also reveal the one potential flaw of building a team around LeBron in that the team must revolve around LeBron. Of course, as a Nets fan, I"d take the seasons LeBron"s teams have had any day of the week, but you have to wonder why a team with a guy in the GOAT conversation still in his prime seems to have a limited ceiling. It is just that hard to build a high-ceiling team around him, and even in cases when they do reach high ceilings, it seems more often than not it is due to talent than due to good team-building. LeBron and Wade had trouble at first because both had really similar games that revolved around dominating the ball (and the same limitations shooting-wise), but were able to get past it when Wade started declining (but was still an all-nba caliber player) and the reigns were fully handed to LeBron. Same with Kyrie to some extent, where Blatt wanted to establish an offense with Kyrie running the show more but that just was not possible. Lue comes in, the team goes full LeBron-ball mode and they win it all (albeit it was a very narrow win with luck on their side). Almost never can you say a team built around LeBron has seen a sustained run of dominance, in large part due to the limitations that LeBron-ball puts on you.

跟庫里這樣的球員相比，雖然庫里顯然不如詹姆斯優秀，但庫里領導下的球隊由於他的比賽風格更無私，上限往往更高。聯盟中沒有幾個球員像庫里一樣無球牽制力大到恐怖的程度。庫里持球時能輕鬆為自己以及隊友創造機會，但他對無球的精通使他能最大化提升隊友的技術水平。鑒於庫里無球也能高效，對球隊產生影響，圍繞庫里建立一支爭冠球隊的進攻體系相比之下就容易許多。庫里打無球的時候，組織者溢出的勇士隊（一哥、格林和李玟）就能在庫里無球發揮超巨影響力的同時組織進攻。過去三個賽季67勝、73勝和67勝的出色戰績印證了這一點。勇士在這三年里幾乎每個賽季都是進攻防守的前二名，而且就算不在前二，也一定在前五。當然還有兩個冠軍，一次飲恨惜敗。勇士隊內的球員進入最佳陣容、拿到三雙都得益於庫有引力。

Compare this to someone like Curry. Obviously not as good of a player as LeBron. But the nature of his game allows for a team with a higher ceiling. One of the few players in the league just as dangerous and impactful without the ball as he is with it. Can easily create for himself and his teammates with the ball in his hands, but uses his adeptness at playing off-ball to bring out the best in his teammates" skills. It is much easier to build a winning team offense around the skill of Steph Curry, due to the fact that he does not need the ball to be effective and have an impact on his team. Playing without the ball allows his team full of playmakers (Dray/Iggy/Livingston) to create offense while Steph Curry is still able to get his and have superstar impact. And the results are clear the past 3 seasons. 67/73/67 wins the past 3 seasons. Top 2 offense and defense nearly every year (and when not, they were definitely in the top 5). 2 championships and narrowly missing out on a 3rd in the final minute of a close Game 7. Guys making all-nba teams and dropping triple double due to the gravity of Curry.

現在的對手寧願讓杜蘭特這個中鋒身高的得分機器一路輕鬆襲擊籃筐的原因就是他們甚至都不敢讓庫里投干擾防守下的三分。加入勇士之前就是笑柄的球員在季後賽發揮了至關重要的作用。沒有庫里，這一切都不可能。勇士這三年取得的成績就是最好的證明。勇士開始統治聯盟之後人們突然覺得67勝的成績是不值大書特書的，但是別忘了，2007-2014這七年中根本就沒有球隊獲得過67勝，進入二十一世紀以來也只有兩支球隊做到過。是，67勝是一個比較挑剔的數字，其他球隊獲得過66勝啊，但是問題不僅僅是數字。問題的核心是，勇士達到67勝的水平後就沒掉下來過。勇士到達了一個其他球隊未曾企及的水準，並連續保持了三年，這三年內每年常規賽勇士都至少領先聯盟第二6個勝場。這一切都顯示了圍繞庫里建隊的球隊上限有多高。

Teams willing to allow a 7 foot scoring machine a free pass to the rim because they are that afraid of Curry shooting even a contested 3. Guys who were nothing but memes the year before all of a sudden playing crucial minutes and making big plays in playoff games. All these are possible because of the kind of environment that Curry creates and the results don"t lie. People have started to take 67-win seasons for granted since the Warriors run of dominance has started, but people forget that before 2014, no team had won 67 games in 7 years and only 2 had done it since the turn of the century. Yes, 67 is an arbitrary number and other teams have done 66, but this isnt about just the number. It is about reaching a point and staying there. The fact that they"ve hit a point that so few have and kept it up for 3 straight years (each year having the best record in the league by 6+ games) just shows the potential of a team built around Curry.

庫里上賽季有杜蘭特的幫忙沒錯，但這其實更證明了我的觀點：庫里的比賽風格使球隊在引進天賦球員的同時保障所有人都在勇士體系內有超巨水平的發揮。

Yes, he had KD this past year, but if anything, that only proves my point more because it shows how Curry"s game is more accommodating to bringing in talent while still allowing everyone to have superstar impact within the system.

你們覺得我說的怎麼樣？歡迎討論，只要有理有據，我接受一切文明的討論。

中心內容總結一下就是：詹姆斯提升稀爛陣容的能力是他最大的優點，但同樣也是他最大的缺點，因為他必須得是球隊的中心，這會使其他明星球員難以融入。

What do you guys think? Feel free to discuss, open to any civil discussion as long as you give solid reasoning and explain well.

TL;DR- Do you think LeBron"s greatest strength (getting the most out of bad rosters) can also be his greatest weakness (in that he always has to be the center of anything on any team he"s on/his game is not easy to mesh with other star talents)?

[–]CelticsLord_DickNipples 341 指標 12小時前

Ironically, I think Steph Curry would be the ultimate teammate for LeBron

事實很諷刺啊，我覺得庫里才是詹姆斯的完美隊友。

[–]KnicksBlueBlurX 84 指標 11小時前

Lebron always gets his three point shooters open, that team would be unstoppable with Lebron managing to get curry open 80% of the time on each possession

詹姆斯總是能讓三分手獲得空位機會，庫詹一搭檔，庫里豈不是80%的回合都處於空位狀態？這還有的玩？

[–]Cavaliersnoobakosowhat 53 指標 11小時前

Damn now I wanna see them play together

靠，我現在突然想看到庫里和詹姆斯一起打球了。

[–]Cavaliersnoobakosowhat 145 指標 11小時前

He did try to recruit Curry once during the heatles era

詹姆斯確實在熱火時期試圖招募過庫里。

[–][UTA] John StocktonThehealeroftri 125 指標 10小時前

Holy shit can you imagine if they clicked together...

要是詹姆斯和庫里一拍即合的話，你們能想像那副畫面嗎？？？

[–]Lakersdlm891 79 指標 8小時前

Not one, not two, not three, not four......

一冠、兩冠、三冠、四冠…..

[–]PistonssubMJM 70 指標 7小時前

That"s what Steph Curry"s doing right now.

庫里現在也朝著那個方向前進呢。

[–]frana95 19 指標 6小時前

I feel like Klay would be the perfect teammate for LeBron, being the ultimate off-the-ball shooter.

我覺得湯普森才是詹姆斯的最完美隊友。湯普森是無球射手的終極版。

[–]654321qwerty 700 指標 13小時前

The way I see it, on offense Lebron increases the value of a scrub that can shoot and, makes them a solid contributer. But he decreases the value of other stars and reduces them to solid contributers.

在我看來，進攻端，詹姆斯能夠提升一個渣渣球員投射的能力，這樣以來就使原本的渣渣球員能為球隊做出實在的貢獻。但詹姆斯同時也會降低明星球員的價值，使他們的貢獻能力下滑。

[–]MibuWolve 156 指標 13小時前

But that"s almost any great player.

Kobe did that to Dwight

MJ did that to Pippen who had better stats when MJ retired

You can"t put 2-3 all star players together and expect them all to average 30ppg like they would if they were on their own team. Guys have to sacrifice stats for the greater good of the team.

Offensively their numbers will decrease, but defense is where they can all get better.

可是所有的偉大球員都有你提到的問題啊。

科比當年就跟霍華德無法兼容。

喬丹也一定程度上限制了皮蓬，喬丹退役後皮蓬數據不是更好了嗎？

兩三個全明星在一起打球，你還指望他們都跟自己做老大時一樣場均拿30分？球員們是需要為了球隊利益做出一定犧牲的。

進攻數據是會下降，但是防守上他們可以都進步啊

[–]SpursScipio_Africanes 66 指標 12小時前

Those aren"t good comparisons. Pippen and MJ both shined on those teams. You might be able to make that case for Rodman, but that"s about it.

It"s not about stats, it"s about efficacy and development. The issue is that he diminishes the benefit of any other player"s ability to create off the dribble. It"s tied, imho, to the reason that basically no player throughout Lebron"s career has ever developed as a capable secondary ball handler. Can you name a single one? If anything, all his teammates get worse in that regard.

Because Lebron is so much more effective than any regular player when he has the ball, it stunts everyone else"s growth. A number of other stars can get around that because they"re so good off ball, or are big men and so aren"t a primary ball handler on offense. I"m actually a little concerned Kawhi may be going down this route as well.

你說的這些例子不恰當。皮蓬和喬丹在合作時期都表現很出色，你或許可以說喬丹影響了羅德曼的數據，但也就僅限於此了。

問題不是數據，是效率和球員發展。問題是他降低了其他球員無球時為球隊創造機會的能力。在我看來，這也就是為什麼在詹姆斯的職業生涯中他沒有一個隊友發展成能力強的組織者。不光如此，他的隊友在組織方面甚至都變得更差了。因為詹姆斯持球時比所有球員都更牛B，這影響了其他球員的發展。一些無球好的明星球員可以不受這個影響，一些不需要做頭號進攻選擇的大個子也是可以跟詹姆斯兼容的。其實我現在擔心倫納德也會走上詹姆斯的老路。

 [–]Lakerschad12341296 215 指標 13小時前

Kobe did that to Dwight

Dwight was injured that year and has not had a statistically relevant season afterwards that"s got nothing to do with Kobe.

科比跟霍華德無法兼容？

霍華德那年受傷了，而且在霍華德在接下來幾年就沒有交出過令人滿意的表現。根本不賴科比。

[–][DET] Chauncey Billupsharbaughkhakis2017 146 指標 13小時前

Yea I agree with this ultimately yea Lebron"s only big need for improvement is becoming a better off ball player

是的，我認為詹姆斯最終能做的巨大提高就是在無球端。

[–]Warriorsnuckapingles 103 指標 11小時前*

Not just better but also more willing. I think him demanding total control of a team has hurt him in some ways. He"s a great basketball mind but he really shouldn"t be the coach.

詹姆斯不僅需要在無球方面做得更好，他還需要更願意打無球。我認為他對球隊的完全掌舵在一定程度上傷害了他。他的籃球智商很優秀，但是他真的不該兼任球隊的教練。

[–]CavalierMD 7 指標 7小時前

Watch the Cavs games. He does cut a lot. He"s a great off ball slasher. He"s just never had a great passer to give him the looks
看看騎士的球吧。他空切次數很多，他是個出色的空切手，只是一直沒有出色的傳球手為他送出助攻罷了。

[–]Thunder BandwagonYodudewhatsupmanbruh 434 指標 14小時前

I see a long ass post I upvote.

這tm真長啊，我一看到長文就自動點推薦。

[–][TOR] Donyell MarshallPSChris33 203 指標 14小時前

OP missed out on a tenfold karma boost by not putting "[OC]" in the title.

樓主忘記了加原創兩字，不然這推薦數就得蹭蹭往上漲了。

[–]PistonsJaerba 312 指標 13小時前*

I swear people did not regularly watch the Heat. Why do you think LeBron was a deadly 3pt shooter that one year? Because he had the ball in his hands the whole time and just got good at shooting contested 3s? Or because the Heat had good ball movement and LeBron got to play offball more?

The Heat were running horns with LeBron as one of the high post screeners like 1/5th the time.

Just looked, his 3s were assisted 55-60% of the time in Miami. His career average, including those years is 49%. His best playoff run, he was assisted on 61% of his 3s and 40% of his 2s. Both 9% or more above his average.

我發誓，你們當初根本就沒有怎麼看熱火的比賽。你們倒是說說詹姆斯那年為什麼三分準的致命？是因為他一直持球，在防守隊員干擾下強投三分？還是因為那年的熱火球的運轉很流暢，詹姆斯得以更多的無球跑動？

熱火那時候打牛角戰術，五分之一的時候都是詹姆斯作為高位擋拆人。

我剛查了下，熱火時期，詹姆斯的三分受助攻率為55-60%。包括那些年在內，他的生涯平均是49%。在他季後賽打的最好的一年，三分受助攻率為61%，兩分受助攻率為40%，而詹姆斯這兩項平均水平只有52%和31%。

[–]CavaliersLeJayJay 166 指標 12小時前

I scrolled down to see if anyone else had posted this. This sub reallly shows its age sometimes. I stopped reading when OP"s first argument was "lebron isnt effective off the ball". I facepalmed so hard, Lebron was the 3rd? best spot up shooter, and deadly from the corner 3 during the heat era.

我點了半天滾輪就為了看看有沒有人提到這個。Reddit有時候真是暴露年齡。樓主說到「詹姆斯無球低效」的時候我就不看了。我tm笑得肚子疼，詹姆斯當初好像是聯盟第三的定位射手？而且在熱火時期，詹姆斯的底角三分簡直準的嚇人。

[–]PistonsJaerba 57 指標 12小時前

Like, I understand that the Cavs" offense is fairly straight forward. And I complain about it a lot - seeking mismatches with high PnR is kind of boring.

That"s the way the Cavs have chosen to build themselves, and it didn"t help that they had coaching issues and didn"t give the Blatt experiment a real shot. But that doesn"t mean it"s the only thing you can do with Lebron. We saw the Heat play some really beautiful basketball with a mix of Lebron/Wade/Chalmers initiating

我是明白騎士的進攻很簡單，我也經常抱怨這點。總利用擋拆打錯位實在有點無聊。

這就是騎士選擇的進攻體系，教練問題的出現和布拉特的解僱顯然也沒起到什麼正面作用。但是這不意味著用擋拆打錯位是你在擁有詹姆斯的情況下能用的唯一戰術。當時的熱火打的籃球美極了，詹姆斯、韋德和查爾莫斯都有組織進攻的時候。

[–]NBAMuffinsco 41 指標 10小時前

Biggest facepalm moment for me was:

Almost never can you say a team built around LeBron has a sustained level of dominance...

7 straight trips to the NBA finals would say a little different. He"s always the best player on his team and everyone has other stars on their team to get too or win the finals.

樓主的文章最讓我發笑的話是這句：「圍繞詹姆斯建隊的球隊幾乎從來不能保持長期的統治力」。

詹姆斯連續七年打入總決賽，你說這話是搞笑嗎？詹姆斯一直是球隊最好的球員。其他球隊也有球星啊，他們怎麼不打入總決賽，贏冠軍看看呢。

[–]NBAVeserius 41 指標 12小時前

You think people on /r/nba actually watch basketball, or know how it works? Most people just look at PPG and then maybe RPG and APG and then call it a night.

The stuff being called out in the OP comes down to coaching IMO, and it"s not like you can"t have a more motion based offense when your star is out of the game, the Spurs bench mob was much more fluid with moving the ball and running tricky offensive sets than their starters were for years.

你們還真以為Reddit上的人看球？或者說懂球？這裡的人大多看個得分籃板助攻就收攤睡覺了。

樓主說的這些問題，在我看來是教練的鍋。詹姆斯下場了，教練就不能幫幫忙使球隊的進攻不陷入停滯？多年來，馬刺的板凳匪徒們都比首發更流暢地運轉球，狡猾的進攻戰術打的也更多。

[–]WarriorsShogunTake 73 指標 13小時前*

Hard to really call it a weakness when they won a ring and lost only to two all time great variations of the GSWs.

弱點？騎士贏了冠軍，僅僅輸給了兩支陣容不同但同樣能定義歷史級別的勇士。

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