袁嵐峰對話諾獎得主約阿希姆·弗蘭克（三）美國科學為什麼成功？諾獎得主談親身經歷：每個創意都該被尊重｜科技袁人

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本視頻發佈於2020年12月16日，播放量已超二百萬

本文為袁嵐峰對話諾獎得主

約阿希姆·弗蘭克之三，

系列之一、二見

美國科學家約阿希姆·弗蘭克、瑞士科學家雅克·杜博歇以及英國科學家理查德·亨德森，因為研發冷凍電子顯微鏡，獲得了2017年的諾貝爾化學獎。冷凍電鏡技術是如何研發出來的？它又有什麼作用？歡迎大家持續關注我與約阿希姆·弗蘭克的對談視頻。

約阿希姆·弗蘭克與袁嵐峰對話

袁嵐峰

In recent World Laureates Forum held in Shanghai, you mentioned an opportunity and challenge tofuture science, i.e., a cryo-EM with the price of 6 million dollars is tooexpensive for most labs. What ideas do you have to this?

在最近在上海召開的世界頂尖科學家論壇上，您提到了一個未來科學的機遇與挑戰：600萬美元的顯微鏡對大多數實驗室來說都太貴了。請問您對此有什麼想法？

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Well, the sixmillion dollar is a surprise tag for the high end microscope.

So many, many labsaround the world have brought and, you know, scrape money together for this.But this is a very good machine, many people are happy about it, but the costis so enormous that a normal lab cannot afford it.

嗯，600萬美元的確價格驚人，因為它是個高端的顯微鏡。

全世界很多很多的實驗室不得不為它四處湊錢。這是一台非常好的機器，很多人對它很高興，但它成本也的確高到讓普通實驗室買不起。

They have to getmoney together from the institutions, sometimes several institutions, plusgovernment money.

他們必須從一些機構，有時是好幾個機構，再加上政府來湊錢。

So it"s notpossible to get a government grant, in any of the countries that?I know tosimply buy this, okay.

所以在我所知的任何一個國家，都不太可能得到政府的補助金去直接買它。

So which reallymeans that the instrument is really something like a privilege of very largecenters, either very rich universities or are these are government centers thatare set up specifically for core instrumentation, but that really means thatyou need to shift the specimens there or you have to travel there, so it"s not good. And that"s why I said, yeah, a solution has to be found for reducing theprices of these instruments.

所以這實際上意味著這種儀器成了某種特權，只屬於很大的研究中心或者很富裕的大學，或者是專門為核心儀器而設立的政府中心。這實際上意味著你需要把自己標本運輸到那裡或者你必須去自己旅行那些地方做實驗，所以這很不好。這就是為什麼我說，必須找到一個降低這些儀器價格的解決方案。

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

You make theinstrument available to very many people rather than just as a single or a fewprinces.

你把儀器提供給更多的人，而不是給少數的王公貴族。

袁嵐峰

How much progressdo we get in this direction?

在這個措施上我們的進展如何呢？

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Yeah, I think right now there"s just an announcement. In fact, it"s going to be, maybetomorrow, an announcement by a Thermo Fisher about and lower cost instrument.There"s some kind of a webinar, and I registered for it, and maybe other peoplealready know about the instrument, but I am right now I am not informed aboutit, but tomorrow I am going to know about it.

我想剛好現在就會有一個聲明。事實上，也許明天，賽默飛公司將發布一份關於低成本儀器的聲明。還有一個網路研討會，我已經註冊了，也許其他人已經知道相關的儀器了，但是我現在還沒有收到通知，但是明天我會知道的。

袁嵐峰

Thank you so much,so the next question is that You were born in Germany, and worked in the USwhen you got the Nobel Prize. How do you think about the systems of science andeducation in Europe and in the US? What are the merits worth learning for Chinaor the shortcomings which China should avoid?

您出生在德國，獲得諾貝爾獎時工作在美國。請問您對歐洲和美國的科教體系有什麼看法？其中有哪些值得中國學習的地方或者中國應該避免的缺點？

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Well, that"s aninteresting question. When I got my academic education in Germany, everythingwas organized in a very autocratic way. So that a top down kind of way withstudents having very little say. So I think this is not a very good system. Ithink a lot has changed after my departure. You know I left Germany in 1970.

嗯，這是個有趣的問題。當我在德國接受學術教育時，一切都是以非常專制的方式組織起來的。學生們幾乎沒有發言權。所以我認為這不是一個很好的系統。我想，在我離開後應該已經發生了很多變化。你知道我在1970年就離開了德國。

袁嵐峰

Just after you gotyour PhD?

就在你拿到博士學位後？

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Yes, yes, that"swhere I got my PhD, and then afterwards I was just traveling in the UnitedStates and there was England and then came back to the United States.

是的，是的，那是我取得博士學位的地方，後來我去美國旅行，又去了英國，然後又回到了美國。

So I have only aninsight about the system right up to the time when I got my PhD and there Iobserved I think it was sort of an unhealthy way or science was organized. Itwas really top down and that"s not a good atmosphere for innovation andcreativity.

所以我在德國的體系內部，只到我獲得博士學位為止，在那裡我觀察到，我認為那時的學術行為不太健康，或者說科學是被組織駕馭起來的。這真的是自上而下的，這就不是一個創新和創造的好氛圍。

In the UnitedStates was the opposite, I"ve got to appreciate the labs in which creativeideas, no matter where they come from, are immediately appreciated andrecognized, even from an undergraduate, you know.

在美國，情況恰恰相反，我很欣賞那裡的實驗室，在那裡，無論創意來自何處，都能立即得到欣賞和認可，即使是來自本科生的主意。

So it was acompletely different situation, and I come to appreciate this Anglo Saxon wayof doing science. And as you know England was very successful in spearheadingthe whole revolution in molecular biology, molecular genetics.

所以這裡情況完全不一樣，我開始欣賞盎格魯-撒克遜人做科學的方式。正如你們所知，英國在分子生物學，分子遺傳學的整個革命中都是先鋒。

So, that』s really Ithink this at the core of why so many successful science was done in the UnitedStates. So what can China learn from this way, which is pretty obvious right?It"s pretty obvious.

所以，我真的認為這就是為什麼美國有這麼多成功的科學的核心原因。那麼，中國能從這種方式中學到什麼呢？這是顯而易見的，對嗎？很明顯。

袁嵐峰

Thank you very much. Do you have close collaborations with Chinese scientists? How do youthink about the situation of science and education in China? Do you havesuggestions?

您跟中國科學家的合作多嗎？您覺得中國的科教現狀如何？有什麼建議？

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Well I have a goodrelationship to Tsinghua University, and I already mentioned Yigong Shi. AndI"ve been interacting with them. I"m on a scientific advisory board there, andI"ve visited a whole number of times and participated on the faculty ofworkshops.

嗯，我和清華大學關係很好，我已經提到過施一公了。我一直在和有他們交流。我是那裡的一個科學諮詢委員會的成員，我訪問了很多次，還作為教師參加過研討會。

So it"s sort ofinteresting. As you know, it was always the way to really get into a career,was to essentially leave China and then get to either Europe or the UnitedStates and get a postdoc experience there and then come back and then isimmediately come into a position.

所以這在某種意義上是有趣的。正如你所知道的，這一直是真正進入職業生涯的方式，基本上是離開中國，然後去歐洲或美國，在那裡獲得博士後的經驗，然後回來，然後立刻找到一個位置。

You might bechanging, you know, because of this very strange attitude that has developed inthe United States. But maybe there"s going to be a change again, so I am reallynot sure there could be a change in that kind of pattern. It might be. It mightbe possible for a Chinese student to get his merits and apprenticeship in Chinadirectly as years go by.

這些可能正在改變，你知道，因為這種非常的態度。但也許還會有變化，所以我真的不確定這種模式是否會有變化。可能是的。隨著時間的推移，一個中國學生有可能在中國能直接獲得自己應有價值和身份。

So I"m really not surewhat to say because China has been in a growth spurt, you know, in a very biggrowth spurt, and there are lots more opportunities, you know, lots more veryexpensive technology, even at distant places. So it"s sort of a changingpattern now.

所以我真的不知道該說什麼，因為中國處於快速增長期，你知道，它處在一個快速的增長期里，這裡有更多的機會，你知道，有很多非常昂貴的技術，即使在偏遠地區。所以它現在正處於一種改變的模式中。

袁嵐峰

Thank you verymuch, so at last, do you have some words to Chinese people?

非常感謝，最後，你對中國觀眾還有什麼話要說嗎？

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Um, well I have tostrongly emphasized that science is international. It always was international.And I feel cringe when I hear about, you know, something like Chinese scienceor American science.

嗯，我必須強調科學是國際性的。它總是國際性的。因此當我聽到像中國科學或美國科學之類的言論時，我會感到尷尬和不安。

It is a method andits uniquely combines people in recognizing the triumph of rationalism, Okay?

科學是一種方法，它獨特地團結了人們，承認了一種理性主義的勝利，不是嗎？

袁嵐峰

I guess there"sonly one way to think straight, and that"s really essentially, you know, followthe recipe of the scientific method, and you can talk to anybody in the worldabout your ideas, and they appreciated if they are educated in the same way.

我想只有一種正確思考的辦法，基本上就是，你知道的，遵循科學方法，你可以和世界上任何人談論你的想法，如果他們同樣接受過科學教育，他們會欣賞你的想法。

So it reallycrosses all borders. And it"s my sincere hope that at this stage, this way andthat we can use science to solve the most pressing problems and includingglobal warming.

所以科學真的跨越了所有的邊界。我真誠地希望，在現在這個階段，我們可以共同用科學來解決最緊迫的問題，包括全球變暖。

Thank you so much, it"s very nice to meetyou, and we wish you a faster recovery. we hope to interview you or to meet you sometime again.

非常感謝，很高興見到你，我們祝你早日康復。我們希望有機會與再次和您聊天。

約阿希姆·弗蘭克

Yeah.

當然有。

主持人：Thank you so much, Professor Frank. Hope you enjoy this interview, have a good day, bye.

非常感謝你，弗蘭克教授。希望你喜歡這次採訪，祝你今天愉快，再見。

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