有理有據！美球迷圖文並茂理性對比歐文和小托馬斯的優劣勢！

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有理有據！美球迷圖文並茂理性對比歐文和小托馬斯的優劣勢！

Seven graphs comparing Isaiah Thomas and Kyrie Irving last season

七張圖對比以賽亞-托馬斯和凱里-歐文上賽季表現

[–]Rocketsca1294[S] 52 指標 14小時前

Notes

All data from NBA.com.

Data is from the 2016-17 NBA regular season.

The sample of Point Guards in the graph includes all players who played the majority of their minutes at PG last season with at least 1000 minutes.

Observations

Kyrie Irving is a phenomenal scorer, but Isaiah Thomas is just on another level with his higher volume and efficiency.

Similarly, Kyrie is great in the clutch, but Isaiah is unreal.

Isaiah is more efficient than Kyrie in every offensive play type. I expected Kyrie to at least have him beat in Isolations.

Both are mediocre among PGs in playmaking and facilitating the offense.

While both are subpar defenders and mediocre rebounders, Kyrie appears to have the slight edge in these categories.

上面七張圖的原創作者，美國JR ca1294：

注釋

所有數據來自NBA.com。

數據範圍為2016-17賽季NBA常規賽。

圖中的控球後衛樣本，包括了上賽季所有在出場的大部分時間裡擔任控衛，且至少出場1000分鐘的球員。

一些觀察

凱里-歐文是現象級的得分手，但以賽亞-托馬斯憑藉更多的得分與更高的效率還要高出一檔。

相似地，歐文在關鍵時刻表現很棒，但小托馬斯是逆天的。

小托馬斯在每一種進攻手段上都比歐文更高效。我本來期待歐文會至少在單打上更勝一籌的。

在組織和提升進攻上，他們都處於控衛的中游水平。

儘管都是低於平均水平的防守者和中游的籃板拼搶者，歐文看上去在這些分類中稍微佔優。

[–][BOS] Jae CrowderSmokeeye123 11 指標 8小時前

So the Celtics traded for a guy 3 years younger, 6 inches taller, with more than 1 year left before a max deal, and basically the same stats. Can see the reasoning.

凱爾特人球迷：所以我凱交易來了一個年輕3歲，高6英寸（15.24厘米），離頂薪續約再晚1年，且數據基本上差不多的傢伙。可以看出交易的原因了。

[–][BOS] E Twaun Moorepokexchespin 18 指標 8小時前

But we also gave up Jae, a top 5ish pick, and a solid prospect

凱爾特人球迷：但我們還放棄了傑-克勞德，一個大概前5的選秀權，和一個紮實的潛力球員。

[–][BOS] Jae CrowderSmokeeye123 4 指標 8小時前

That s true we definitely overpaid. However, I think we had to if we wanted to trade with our biggest rival.

Jae is a good player, but Hayward would be starting over him and we needed to give Tatum and Brown minutes for them to develop. So he became expendable, great contract and all.

Zicic is an ok prospect but I think if Danny really thought he had a shot at being great he wouldve kept him.

The pick is huge and the only thing that makes this an overpay imo. It has a high probablity of being top 5 and virtually no chance of being outside of the top 8. lakers pick probably will not transfer to us next year as they are better on paper than the Nets.

This trade to me is Ainge investing fully in a post-goldenstate world where his young players hopefully develop into allstar level players (Tatum/Brown). Horford s money comes off the books right about when Brown would need to get paid.

凱爾特人球迷：我們交易籌碼過高，這話不假。但如果和頭號對手坐下交易對話，我想這是我們必須付出的代價。

克勞德，作為球員上佳，但海沃德會首發凌駕於他。還要留時間讓塔圖姆和布朗上場，讓他們有機會成長為大咖。於是克勞德可以離隊，這只是一份不錯的合約，就是這麼乾脆。

關於日日奇，可能有些潛力，但我想如果安吉真的認為他會成為傳奇，那就會把他留在隊里。

選秀權具有重大意義，在我眼裡，這是我們唯一過度支付的東西。前五順位可期，錯過前八的幾率小得可以。湖人的選秀權明年大概不會傳遞到我們手心，因為他們在紙面上有比籃網更強的實力。

這場交易，對我的意義，是安吉把籌碼都壓在了後金州勇士的世界裡。在那個時期，他的年輕夥計（塔圖姆/布朗）有希望成長為全明星級。當杰倫-布朗來到要簽大合同的時機，霍福德的合約剛好到期。

[–]Cavalierstapk69 9 指標 13小時前

Kyrie = bigger IT?

歐文 = 更大號的小托馬斯？

[–]Cavaliersw0m 14 指標 11小時前

Bigger/younger/better-handles IT.

They visually play very** differently; i m surprised they break down so similarly.

騎士球迷：更大隻/更年輕/持球更好的小托馬斯。

從視覺上，他們打球是那麼特么的不同；我很驚訝他們的細分數據是如此相似。

[–]hubau 229 指標 12小時前

Their most recent season side-by-side:

Also, Isaiah is coming off an injury.The greater context for the trade is that Isaiah has only one year left on his contract, while Kyrie has two. Isaiah is three years older, but they have both been in the league six years; most players take their biggest leaps within their first five years, so we can assume that both guys are probably roughly who they will be at this point. But Kyrie has his full prime ahead of him, while Isaiah has entered his.

The other context is that the above numbers show Thomas as a primary scoring option, so they probably under-represent his impact slightly in comparison to Kyrie. Kyrie had the benefit of Lebron absorbing the majority of double-teams, and extra defensive attention, while Isaiah was the defensive focus throughout the year.

他們兩人最近一個賽季的直接對比：

同時，小托馬斯還處於傷病康復期。這次交易的更宏觀背景是，小托馬斯的合約只剩下一年了，而歐文還有兩年。小托馬斯年長三歲，但他們兩人都已經在聯盟征戰了六年；大多數球員的最大幅度飛躍發生在他們的生涯前五年里，所以我們可以假定這兩個傢伙未來和現在相比不會有翻天覆地的變化。但歐文的巔峰期還在遠一點的未來，而小托馬斯已經步入了他的巔峰期。

另一個背景是上述數據顯示小托馬斯是首要得分選擇，所以相比於歐文，這些數據對比可能輕微低估了小托馬斯的影響力。詹姆斯吸引走了大多數的雙人包夾與更多的防守注意力，歐文便從中獲益，而小托馬斯在一整年裡都是防守人的焦點。

[–]Celticsjgr79 75 指標 11小時前

It s amazing to think how much IT s injury cost the Celtics. You gotta think that one reason they gave up so much in addition to IT is because Cleveland is now assuming all of the risk for IT s hip. It s not hard to imagine that without that risk, the BKN pick and maybe even Zizic are not included (I m assuming Jae was still needed for salary matching(?)).

That injury would end up being a franchise changing injury for both teams if that BKN pick ends up being a great player.

凱爾特人球迷：小托馬斯的傷病讓凱爾特人付出了多少代價，這事想想就令人震驚。你會想到他們在小托馬斯之外還要送出那麼多籌碼的原因之一，是騎士現在充分考慮到了小托馬斯臀部傷勢的風險。不難想像，要是沒有傷病風險，籃網的選秀權甚至日日奇都不會被交易（我是在假設克勞德仍然需要被交易走，因為工資配平（？））。

如果那個籃網簽能選到一名出眾的球員，那這次傷病可能最終會讓兩隊發生翻天覆地的變化。

[–]Celticsgriffin958 22 指標 10小時前

Isaiah s injury would only affect the Cavs for one year. If IT gets 25-30 Million re-signing the Cavs would have to pay nearly 200M in luxury tax

凱爾特人球迷：小托馬斯的傷病只會影響騎士一個賽季。如果小托馬斯以2500-3000萬美元續約，那騎士就要繳納接近2億美元的奢侈稅了。

[–]GameDesignerDude 14 指標 7小時前

I m not quite sure I understand why the Celtics are so quick to dismiss Kyrie s injury history though. He s basically had chronic issues with his left knee and fairly regular issues with his shoulder.

On the other hand, while IT may not be available for the opener, the consensus is that it is the type of injury that should be fully recoverable. It is also ITs only major injury of his career, as far as I know.

In the very short term, I can see how Kyrie s situation would be marginally better, but I don t really feel like he is exactly the picture of health either.

然而，我卻不太理解為何凱爾特人如此輕易地就接受了歐文的傷病史。實際上，他的左膝有長期問題，而肩膀也基本常有傷病。

另一方面，即使小托馬斯可能會因傷缺席揭幕戰。輿論一致認為他的傷病是可以完全恢復的類型。這也是小托馬斯生涯中的唯一一次重大傷病，在我記憶里是如此。

長話短說，我理解歐文在職業生涯中的身位可能會比小托馬斯略勝一籌，但我也不認為歐文就是健康的代名詞。

[–]Celticsjgr79 6 指標 6小時前

This is a good point and no one is talking about it. Kyrie and IT have both been in the league the same number of years (6) but IT has played 60 more regular season games than Kyrie because of Irving s injuries.

凱爾特人球迷：這是個很有價值但沒人討論的事實。因為歐文和小托馬斯在聯盟征戰的年數一樣（6年），但因為歐文總受傷，小托馬斯比他多打了60場常規賽。

[–][BOS] Jaylen BrownJaylen- 138 指標 13小時前

Pretty good stuff my man. Despite the injury, I still believe in Isaiah. Hopefully, him being in the Cavs will negate all the hate he got for being a Celtic. He is legit and I m sure he will continue to prove everyone wrong. I still stand by the point he had a better year than Kyrie last year and this post by yours just prove how he had such a historic season.

凱爾特人球迷：乾貨十足啊我的哥。儘管有傷，我依然相信小托馬斯。他現在是騎士的一員了，但願這能抵消他從前作為一名凱爾特人時受到的所有非議。他棒極了，而我確定他會繼續打所有人的臉。我堅持認為他上賽季的表現要比歐文更好，而你的這個帖子恰好證明了他剛剛打出了一個如此歷史級的賽季。

[–]RaptorsvanBeest 69 指標 12小時前

I don t even see an argument that he wasn t better than Kyrie last season. What Isaiah did was outrageous, and if he can bring close to the same production this year for Cleveland then there s no doubt in my mind that the Cavs are better equipped to contend now than a week ago, especially with the inclusion of Jae.

I understand why Boston moved on from Thomas, and pulling Kyrie Irving as a replacement is obviously nice for an aging undersized guard looking for a payday. Still though, the Brooklyn pick has gotta a bitter pill to swallow for the Celtics front office. If Thomas can stay productive for a few more seasons I see this as a big win for the Cavs.

我都想不出哪怕一個支持上賽季小托馬斯不如歐文觀點的論據來。小托馬斯的表現完全不講道理，如果他這賽季在騎士能保持相近的產出，那在我心裡，這周的騎士比起上周，在爭冠道路上毫無疑問地更加兵強馬壯了，特別是有傑-克勞德的加入。

我理解為什麼波士頓和小托馬斯分手，而拉凱里-歐文過來，作為一名即將老化、尋找高薪的小個後衛的替代者，這明顯是步好棋。然而，凱爾特人制服組依然要吞下失去籃網選秀權的苦果。如果小托馬斯能再維持幾個賽季的高效，那我覺得這次交易無疑是騎士大賺一筆。

[–][BOS] Jaylen BrownJaylen- 29 指標 12小時前

Short term and long term, this really was a great trade for the Cavs. Ultimately, it will hang on the status of Isaiah s injury but if he is healthy and considering the addition of Crowder, Rose, and possibly even Wade - the Cavs are in a great position to compete against the Warriors.

I see it too, the Brooklyn pick is going to sting. Plus, I really had high hopes for Zizic. But in context, this trade gives playing time to Tatum and Brown. Seeing the likelihood of the Celtics resigning IT was pretty low, essentially looking at 2018-2019, instead of having a roster of (POSSIBLY)Doncic, Hayward, Crowder, Morris, Horford they opted to have Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Morris, Horford instead,

But don t listen to me, I m just trying to justify the trade and make myself feel better hahahahuhuhu

凱爾特人球迷：無論短期，還是長期，這對騎士都是一筆非常好的交易。當然這最終還要取決於小托馬斯的傷情，但如果他保持健康，再把克勞德，羅斯，甚至韋德加進陣容里 - 那騎士在和勇士競爭中的位置就將相當有利。

我也同意，失去籃網簽讓人痛苦嘆息。更何況我很看好日日奇。但基於情境，這筆交易會給予塔圖姆和布朗更多上場時機。考慮到凱爾特人續約小托馬斯的可能很低，特別是望向2018-19之際，與其手握海沃德，克勞德，莫里斯，霍福德，（可能）東契奇，他們當然傾向歐文，布朗，海沃德，莫里斯，霍福德作為代替。

但我說的話不要認真聽，我只是試圖為這筆交易正名，讓我自己增添一點點開心，深呼吸深呼吸...

譯者註：盧卡-東契奇，身高203厘米，作為得分後衛效力皇家馬德里，2018年選秀前五熱門之一。

[–]Celticsjpgray 5 指標 5小時前

I think Ainge is expecting the BKN pick to end up going 6+ this year. Brooklyn improved significantly in the off-season, has every reason to try to win games, and at least 4 teams in the East will actively be trying to tank.

我覺得安吉是在指望這賽季的籃網簽會跌到6+順位。籃網在休賽期顯著補強，有充足的理由去試圖贏球，而在東部至少有4支隊伍會積極嘗試擺爛。

[–]Celticsthehippykid 373 指標 13小時前*

Man the one good thing about trading IT is now everyone is defending him. Where were yall before when he was a Celtic and I was saying he was better than Kyrie? lol

IT was our entire offense. Of course other guys would hit their open shots but it was on him to create everything for them.

Celtics had like 3 players who could go off any night but not every night (shoutout Kelly). Except IT of course.

Dude was our main option and pretty much only consistent option and every other team knew it, but he still played at a high level of efficiency.

凱爾特人球迷：大兄弟們，交易小托馬斯的好處之一，是現在每個人都為他辯護了。當他還是個凱爾特人而我說他比歐文更好時，你們都在哪兒呢？哈哈哈哈。

小托馬斯就是我們的全部進攻體系。當然了，其他球員能命中他們的空位投籃，但這要依賴小托馬斯為他們創造出一切機會。

凱爾特人有大概那麼3名球員，有可能在任何一晚爆發，但不能每晚輸出穩定表現（奧利尼克你最棒了）。當然了，這肯定不包括小托馬斯。

這哥們是我們的主要進攻選項，很大程度上是唯一的穩定火力點，每支球隊都對此心知肚明，但他卻依舊錶現得十分高效。

[–]Celticsbigred444 31 指標 10小時前

I wish I could appreciate all of these graphs but they re a nightmare for colorblind folk.

我希望我能欣賞這些圖，但對於一個色盲的傢伙來說，這簡直是噩夢啊。

[–]Celticsiamlikethewindbaby 17 指標 7小時前*

I m color blind and just assumed the IT was the better dot on the offensive stats and Kyrie was the better dot on the defensive stats. How d I do?

我色盲，我就把進攻數據中所有表現更好的點都當作是小托馬斯，把防守數據中更好的點當作歐文。我幹得怎麼樣？

[–]RaptorsDreamCatcher24 10 指標 7小時前

nailed it

螺旋穩。

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